The fourteenth monthly Mass took place this afternoon in the presence of a congregation of eight. The Mass did not take place in the Church as was usual but in the room behind the tabernacle where some of the congregation usually have tea after Mass. The reason for the change was a display in sand in front of the Altar.
St. Conleth of Kildare, pray for us!
St. Conleth of Kildare, pray for us!
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18 comments:
Urh!?
Why did they have the sand display?
this shows that there is no demand in K+L for the TLM. People can complain about the different scheduling of the Mass etc. But to genuine Traditionalist these things would not matter. I cannot understand how those in K+L who claim to be traditional do not make the effort to attend. Where are the supposed trads of Carlow Town. It is a 1 hour drive. Why do they not attend? In the US I have seen people drive many more hours to get to a TLM. If I was Bishop of K+L I would fold the whole enterprise as the Dublin TLM is not far away. How, when there is a a shortage of priests, can the Bishop justify flying in a Priest for 8 people.
IMB
Dear IMB,
I don't think your conclusion is correct but your comments are valid. What is worse, I know that these points are being made within the Diocese as an excuse not to implement Summorum Pontificum.
This month was the first time that I myself wasn't present for the monthly Mass. I was in Italy attending the FIUV General Assembly.
Quite a few of my neighbours and friends have made or still do make the effort to attend but it is increasingly pointless when you can't even be sure that the Mass will take place.
Quite a few have attended, at least in part, to confound a lie by mischief-makers spread even before the Masses began, mind you, and when nobdy would even tell us if/when the Masses were to take place, that we were boycotting the Masses!
I admit the poor numbers sadden and infuriate me but they don't surprise me - and can hardly surprise you - when that is the level of engagement.
One man said that, if he wanted to be insulted by Priests, he had no need to import them - there were enough here already.
Those who love the Gregorian Rite should support the Gregorian Rite but Catholics should not be condemned for preferring Mass in their own Parish to this kind of nonsense.
The "supposed trads" of Carlow Town are 'away with the pixies' in more senses than one. They had only two bolts in their quiver and they shot both long ago.
The efforts in Carlow shown in the post on 1st November were led by St. Conleth's CHA.
There is plenty of sincere prayerful interest in the Gregorian Rite here but you can't expect them to offer themselves as martyrs on the altar of egos of such as these.
The real question is: do the organisers care that so few attend. Did they ever want more than an event for their own benefit?
What's wrong with an event for their own benefit? If you like the Gregorian Rite, why not organise a Gregorian Rite Mass for yourself?
On the other hand, if you want an event for your own benefit, why hijack the work of others? Why hijack a Mass that is ostensibly for the faithful of a Diocese to which you don't belong? I can't answer.
There is a sort of pseudo-traditionalist that rejoices in hijacking the efforts of others and in undermining everyone else. It's not my way, I think. Most sincere lovers of the Gregorian Rite see through it and walk past it. The road to holiness does not lie there.
I don't rejoice in this disaster, I mourn it. If someone wants their own events - and if they want to hijack events - they should make a success of them!
This too shall pass. I've said to more than one PP in the past: "Carry on, Father, and when you and three of your successors are long gone and well forgotten from this place, I will still be here." Little did I think that I would be saying it in this context.
However, I say: let this (admittedly dreadful) situation carry on as long as it can - I've no desire to see Masses suppressed - but, when it is long gone and well forgotten from this place, St. Conleth's Catholic Heritage Association will still be here and so will the cause of the Gregorian Rite.
I agree with Mark M. What was the sand doing there? "martyrs on the altar of egos of such as these". Why not? IMB maybe has a point about these things not mattering to genuine Traditionalists. Shouldn't you just suck it up Convenor and get on board?
Ponte Sisto,
Your point is valid but you must put this in the context of an absolute refusal by the organisers to let us on-board, to let us help, or even to let us into the secret of if/when the next Mass is to be held. I can't force people to go to this Mass if they don't want to to.
I'm not comfortable with this concept of "genuine Traditionalists" if it means that sincerity of attachment to the Extraordinary Form is defined in terms of degree of rejection of the Ordinary Form. As IMB says, there is an excellent Latin Mass Chaplaincy in Dublin at which you'll often find more Kildare people than you'll find at these Masses. They are willing to support that which they think is worthy of support.
Beyond all this, I'm content to attend these Masses and I'm content to have this crew organise them. My discontent it with the approach. Either it's designed to be exclusive and unpopular or they just don't have what it takes to organise effectively. Either way, they're wasting an excellent opportunity.
However, since I can't get on board, I shouldn't try to sink the ship (as if they need help) and I should try to get something else afloat in the meantime.
Convenor:
I think what Ponte Sisto was meaning, as IMB originally opined, was that the a "genuine" traditionalist it ought not matter who is organising it, it generally ought not matter the circumstances, they simply go because it is the Mass.
Many problems in attendance may actually be scheduling. I know I can't go to daily Mass because of work. And when I could after work, I have things to do at home. You are all lucky to have this Mass.
Im as genuine a Catholic as anyone and I went for as long as I could stomach it. Nobody should be telling me that Im less a traditionalist when I decide not to support these people.
Mark,
I can agree that the small attendance is partly due to scheduling. I've said it before that 1 pm once a month isn't a great time. On the other hand, I've also said that 12.30 pm seems fine for about 500 people at the other end of the Parish (and its not a geographically large Parish).
However, if there is a 'scheduling' issue, it's the seeming randomness with which Masses are cancelled/transferred/delayed and that's entirely due to the organisers.
Personally, I agree that it shouldn't be about who is organising the Mass - which is why I think the people who brought it about and who actually live in the Parish/Diocese shouldn't have been so brutally excluded. It shouldn't be about who is organising the Mass, which is why there was no boycott.
However, there is no moral obligation to attend the Gregorian Rite - even for "genuine traditionalists", whatever they are. The reality is that, if you treat people with contempt you are not going to attract them. If you treat them with contempt you will repell them. I could see the repellant approach that was being adopted even before the Masses started. I appealed to the organisers to change the approach. I was ignored.
I don't think you can blame the people for being repelled. I've turned plenty of cheeks and still attend regularly but I'm not going to condemn others if they've run out of cheeks to offer.
You shouldn't expect the people to offer themselves as martyrs on the Altar of egos such as these. I don't think you can define them as insincere traditionalists because they won't let themselves be vicitims for the benefit of these little gods in transitory glory.
I take no pleasure in seeing a constant slide in attendance but don't ask me to be surprised.
Convenor,
Who is organising the Mass? Is it the FSSP or the Diocese or is it some other group that we are not aware of? Is your annoyance directed towards the FSSP , the Diocese or the other group? Who has hijacked the work of another? Not being familiar with K+L I confess I do not know whats going on. I am an outsider simply observing from outside the fish bowl. Reading your blog leads me to think that their is a lot of conspiricy and anger . I also see from your blog a lot of fractionalism and infighting. Who is is fighting who? Why all this anger and conspiricy?
It is impossible I would say to sort out the scheduling if one is flying a priest in from England. A priest who has duties there. Anything can go wrong. He could be called to the dying on his way to the Airport. which takes precedent the mass or the Dying? His plane, as is often the case, could be delayed. Limerick fly in a priest but I believe his only minstry is in the seminary and he flies in on the Saturday.
Looking at the bigger picture , Why has St Conleth or any other group not enticed one of the local priests to celebrate? In almost every other diocese there seems to be a least one priest willing to offer the mass , even on an occasional basis.
There must be something drastically wrong in K+L, not just with the Diocese but with Trads. I think you might have something when you complain of egos. But I am not at all sure it is only the Egos of the "other"
I am very suprisded at the lack of numbers. I do not know what you mean when you talk about the man who feels insulted by the Priest. is he insulted just because the priest may not have turned up or was late. If so then the problem is with himself and his ego.
If ,as you imply ,their are poeple in their parishes who want a TLM let them use the procedure that is laid down in SP. Why have the not done so?
"I've said to more than one PP in the past: "Carry on, Father, and when you and three of your successors are long gone and well forgotten from this place, I will still be here." How egotistical is that. I think I am beginning to see the problem clearly.
IMB
IMB,
There's a lot of fair comment in what you say. I don't think I ever claimed to be ego-free myself but your first post criticised the local people who, as I say, support the Gregorian Rite but do not attend these monthly Masses. My remarks were directed to that.
There are people in 'K&L' who support the Gregorian Rite who have never attended those Masses or who attended at the started but who have gradually stopped or who are still going. I don't think any of them are less "genuine Traditionalists" for that.
"I also see from your blog a lot of fractionalism and infighting. Who is is fighting who? Why all this anger and conspiricy?"
Myself, I don't mind "fractionalism". If you can't serve God together, why not try to serve Him apart?
I hope that fair comment and criticism is found on this blog but I don't think there's (in)fighting.
Can you blame people for being angry when an excellent opportunity is run into the ground?
I also don't mind conspiracy as long as (a) it's in a good cause, (b) it works, and (c) it does no harm to others.
"It is impossible I would say to sort out the scheduling if one is flying a priest in from England."
Fair comments but the scheduling problems don't seem to be of the (valid) kind you raise but (planned) changes with little or no notice given simply because the organisers won't do us the courtesy of sending an e-mail. In the good old days of fruitful co-operation, we said that if an FSSP Priest couldn't come we would have a substitute on standby. That offer went the way of the rest.
"Why has St Conleth or any other group not enticed one of the local priests to celebrate?" Actually, we have.
"There must be something drastically wrong in K+L, not just with the Diocese but with Trads."
Great how you can figure that out when "Not being familiar with K+L I confess I do not know whats going on." In my experience, there's always something drastically wrong with Trads.
"I think you might have something when you complain of egos. But I am not at all sure it is only the Egos of the "other""
As I say, I'd like to deny it but we've all got egos and they always get in the way.
"I do not know what you mean when you talk about the man who feels insulted by the Priest. is he insulted just because the priest may not have turned up or was late. If so then the problem is with himself and his ego."
You'll have to ask him yourself but I think people have the right to be hurt.
"If, as you imply, their are poeple in their parishes who want a TLM let them use the procedure that is laid down in SP. Why have the not done so?"
I don't imply it. I emphatically state it! They have used the procedure in 'Summorum Pontificum'. See my post on 1st November last.
""I've said to more than one PP in the past: "Carry on, Father, and when you and three of your successors are long gone and well forgotten from this place, I will still be here." How egotistical is that. I think I am beginning to see the problem clearly."
If that is egotistical it's also accurate. If 'K&L' Parishes don't want to permit the Gregorian Rite - and most don't, then waiting them out is valid.
If the organisers of the monthly Masses insist upon carrying on in this way, I'm not going to stop them, or wish them stopped. At the same time, the cause of the Gregorian Rite doesn't begin or end with these monthly Masses, although they are the perfect excuse to give nothing else.
If I had a reason for them to stop, it's not because I'm not involved. It's not because I'm angry at their sharp practice. It's not because it's a failure - when is a Mass ever a failure? It's because they are preventing further progress. If that's ego, super-size me!
"Myself, I don't mind "fractionalism". If you can't serve God together, why not try to serve Him apart? " How very protestant.
"I hope that fair comment and criticism is found on this blog but I don't think there's (in)fighting."
I don't think you have fair comment . your comments seem to be full of anger and allusion to conspiricy
"Why has St Conleth or any other group not enticed one of the local priests to celebrate?" Actually, we have. " if that is so why not get him to say the sunday mass.
"There must be something drastically wrong in K+L, not just with the Diocese but with Trads.
Great how you can figure that out when "Not being familiar with K+L I confess I do not know whats going on." Deduced from what you write and from the terrible picture you potray. As I said in my previous comment, I get my info from your blog.You may not intend to communicate such a bad picture but that is the picture I receive.
"You'll have to ask him yourself but I think people have the right to be hurt." it is up to you to back up what you said since you used the origibal argument If you do not know what the insult was you should not have produced the original comment to back up your claims. Now was he hurt or was he insulted . what was the hurt caused by.
"I don't imply it. I emphatically state it! They have used the procedure in 'Summorum Pontificum'. See my post on 1st November last." excellent . So we can expect more Sunday TLM in the future and there will be no need for The FSSP priest to come to Ireland.
"If that is egotistical it's also accurate. If 'K&L' Parishes don't want to permit the Gregorian Rite - and most don't, then waiting them out is valid" Nobody doubted the accuracy of your statement. But is it really a statement that can make friends and influence people. Is it really a statement that will help priests to understand peoples needs for a TLM. Is it really a statement that will help the priest to change his ideas about the TLM and its followers. Remeber St John Bosco, we can catch more bees with a pot of honey than a pot of vinegar
"If the organisers of the monthly Masses insist upon carrying on in this way" You still have not told us who organises the Mass. Is it the Diocese ,is it FSSP or another group. Who are these people that you keep reffering too?
IMB
"How very protestant."
Or how very Franciscan/Capuchin Benedictine/Cistercian Calced/Discalced Carmelite. What is wrong with multiplicity and difference?
"'Why has St Conleth or any other group not enticed one of the local priests to celebrate?" Actually, we have.' if that is so why not get him to say the sunday mass."
Why not get him to say ANOTHER Sunday Mass? I just don't understand why people keep fighting over the same ground. Admittedly, it looks like we're fighting over the monthly Masses but, in defence, they were provided at our behest, the FSSP was invited at our behest. I've no problem with not being involved in organising them - although it is a massive error to exclude the very people who obtained the permission, for whom it was granted and for whose benefit the Masses are to be provided - but I have a huge problem with their being organised so disasterously.
"It is up to you to back up what you said since you used the origibal argument"
People are hurt. People don't come. That's my argument. The facts speak for themselves.
"So we can expect more Sunday TLM in the future"
I certainly hope so! Although, to be fair to the Bishop, he responded to our requests by means of the monthly Masses. It's a miserly permission for requests in half a dozen Parishes for Mass on Sundays and Holydays but it was the only response so far.
"there will be no need for The FSSP priest to come to Ireland."
I don't see why more Masses means less FSSP. Why can't everyone come and, if they can't work together, let them work apart? I don't object to the FSSP anywhere, even in my own Parish, if they can carry on without harm. It is, after all, why we kept on at the Bishop to invite them in the first place.
"Is it really a statement that will help priests to understand peoples needs for a TLM."
It's not my first or preferred remark, certainly, but I think it's fairly educative for the 60's generation who still think they're the wave of the future.
I also think it's valid for those who think that the Gregorian Rite depends exclusively on these monthly Masses.
You still have not told us who is organising the Mass?
IMB
For my part I agree with IMB... and some of the other comments about seeing the essentials as opposed to minutiae of other mundanities.
Still silent on who the organisers are?
Interesting.
IMB
Dear Mark,
At the risk of alliteration, may I make bold to mention that minutiae and mundanities matter?
If minutiae and mundanities don't matter, why are we bothering about the Gregorian Rite at all? Surely a valid Mass is a valid Mass?
The externals of the Rite, venerable and precious 'though they may be, are 'mere' minutiae and mundanities, if you regard minutiae and mundanities as being 'mere'.
At the risk of chiché, there is nothing so important as trifles, or, as Sacred Scripture tells us: "He that is faithful in that which is least, is faithful also in that which is greater: and he that is unjust in that which is little, is unjust also in that which is greater." Luc. xvi, 10.
Or, to put it another way, are minutiae and mundanities still trifles when they're running the thing into the ground?
What is IMBs problem? Can he not contact the Priest direct?
Edel stepped in when nobody else would and if she is always busy with other projects, she still finds time to help others with theirs, even if it is only with a smile and a word of encouragement. In thanking all those who have made this blog what it is, I can't forget Edel for her occasional contributions - a small reflection of the good that she does. God bless and keep you!
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