tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3503689522096376739.post3734039588802590803..comments2023-10-17T12:19:22.853+01:00Comments on The Catholic Heritage Association of Ireland: The Bandon Rebellion of 1689Catholic Heritage Associationhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/16931529213337535429noreply@blogger.comBlogger8125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3503689522096376739.post-55396938242167327512011-05-16T16:01:43.281+01:002011-05-16T16:01:43.281+01:00There is a lot of irrelevant and extraneous materi...There is a lot of irrelevant and extraneous material here. Saxon does not equate with perfidy as you seem to imply. We all know the sufferings of Catholics both in Ireland and Britain but this should not be confused with a seperatist Nationalist agenda. Do you think that James II was Irish?Charliehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13422232126454563383noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3503689522096376739.post-91304288068832393602011-04-12T14:58:58.176+01:002011-04-12T14:58:58.176+01:00Very intersting story. I don't think I've ...Very intersting story. I don't think I've ever heard of it before.Veronica Lanehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12340070034885770230noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3503689522096376739.post-53616957764147241092011-04-01T17:13:57.191+01:002011-04-01T17:13:57.191+01:00REALLY intersting exchange. I also liked this arti...REALLY intersting exchange. I also liked this article because it shot a glance into the human beings behind great events. I dont think I liked Katty Holt but she was an interesting character for sure. Good job by everyone. <br /><br />Joyce F.Alyssahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12062622843156426728noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3503689522096376739.post-30034950234791955412011-03-04T10:48:33.772+00:002011-03-04T10:48:33.772+00:00Well, shane? Are you willing?Well, shane? Are you willing?Convenorhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17939527929709019039noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3503689522096376739.post-2975975290468966002011-03-04T05:52:44.040+00:002011-03-04T05:52:44.040+00:00Both this post and the previous on on Bandon, as w...Both this post and the previous on on Bandon, as well as <b>Shane's</b> comments, were just fascinating. If the two of you want to dig a little further into this, I'll be happy to read it!Anthony S. Laynehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14807873592896092136noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3503689522096376739.post-3138561901317606092011-02-27T23:24:22.958+00:002011-02-27T23:24:22.958+00:00Hi Shane, thanks for the excellent comments. Two t...Hi Shane, thanks for the excellent comments. Two thoughts strike me from what you say. First is the contrast in the poetry of Ulster and Munster, the Aislings or dream-poems written by Gaelic Irish poets reflect two different impressions of the Stuarts. Ulster, which had direct experience of Jacobite plantation, had a more realistic sense of them while Munster was far more idealistic because they had less embittered experience of them.<br /><br />The other idea that strikes me is that James II, as you say, was very much the Englishman. I think that his brother Charles was far more frenchified and influenced by continental exile, while James (from the Peyps diaries anyway) seems more 'John Bull and roast beef' English - founder of the Royal Navy, after all. It is a great irony that Charles kept a balance while James created crisis after crisis.Shandon Bellehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08054708322584874701noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3503689522096376739.post-6114454441807285342011-02-27T21:48:41.254+00:002011-02-27T21:48:41.254+00:00In this respect they do mirror the state of the na...In this respect they do mirror the state of the nation and of popular feeling. At times too, one of them breaks away from convention and strikes a harsh realistic note: —<br /><br /><i>King James came over to Ireland<br /><br />Wearing an English shoe and an Irish brogue<br /><br />(Do tháinig Righ Seamus chuaghainn go h-Éire<br /><br />Re na bhróg Ghallda ‘s re na bhróg Ghaolach);</i><br /><br />and “it was his coming,” the verse continues, “that took Ireland from us”. Another figures Ireland lamenting bitterly that<br /><br /><i>It was the second James who crushed my senses<br /><br />And left me lamenting…</i><br /><br />While still another descends to vulgarities in characterizing the dethroned king.<br /><br />[...]as a result of the going abroad of the chiefs and nobles, the feudal conception of patriotism associated with their caste began to vanish. It gradually gave way to a spirit of democratic nationalism, hitherto unknown, which ultimately materialised in the United Irish movement in the last decade of the eighteenth century, and later in that of O’Connell. The new spirit appeared, as has been said, in the eighteenth-century poets — in the nationalistic note that crept into their verses, in which the Stuarts were forgotten and Ireland and her hopes were sung.<br /><br />[...]The (Jacobite) campaign makes one of the many tragic chapters of Irish history and marks the crisis in the ill-fortunes of James. [...] His failure was partly due to the fact that he made no study of local conditions; he was convinced that the only grievance was the religious one. Like so many Englishmen before and since, he regarded Ireland as a conquered country to be exploited for the benefit of England. On the other hand, there was little if any affection of disinterested loyal sentiment in the Irish for him. He was, it is true, received with acclamation on his arrival among them; but they were soon disillusioned on finding that their hopes in him were unfounded. D’Avaux the French ambassador, reporting his experiences in Ireland to Louis XIV, wrote that “five months after James’s landing in Ireland he had entirely lost the affection of the Irish people who, at his arrival, had been ready to do anything for him”. And when James arrived in France after his flight on the Boyne reverse, he had already forgotten Ireland — lost to him, he said, by Irish cowardice; and there is no evidence, as Mr. Turner says, that he ever again took more than a passing interest in that country.[...]” (Ireland and Jacobitism, Richard Hayes, <i>Studies</i>, Vol. 38, No. 149 (March, 1949), pp. 101-106)shanehttp://lxoa.wordpress.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3503689522096376739.post-69808135104404040452011-02-27T21:46:00.036+00:002011-02-27T21:46:00.036+00:00A fascinating piece.
On the subject of Ireland an...A fascinating piece.<br /><br />On the subject of Ireland and Jacobitism, I recently came across an interesting piece by Dr Richard Hayes in Studies (Irish Jesuit periodical) from 1949. The following is an extract:<br /><br /> “In most features Irish differed from British Jacobitism. The loyalty and devotion to James the Second and to his son and grandson, which stirred the enthusiasm of a considerable proportion of the people of England and Scotland, did not exist in Ireland. By the Irish participants on the side of James the Jacobite War from 1689 to 1691 was not regarded as a fight for a dynasty. The chiefs and nobles, who summoned local followers and led them into battle, had as their pre-dominant motive the regaining of their confiscated lands. They had no affection for James, whom they used merely as an instrument in their designs. Nor was the War a religious one except in a subsidiary way — it was not a struggle between Catholic and Protestant, though it has been regarded as such by the carnal and spiritual descendants of the supporters of William of Orange in north-eastern Ireland. A considerable number of Catholics fought in the Williamite army (its finest regiment, the Dutch Blue Guards, was almost exclusively Catholic), while a substantial number of Protestants were in the army of James. Apart from the fighting forces the Protestant archbishop of Armagh and seven Irish bishops of the Protestant church supported James. A number of high-placed ecclesiastics of the same creed sacrified their worldly prospects by refusing to take the Oath of allegiance to William; the Provost of Trinity College and leading State officials too were Jacobites in conviction. And finally at the beginning of the War James appealed in vain for help to the Catholics Powers of Europe, while the Williamite victory was received with elation in Rome and was celebrated with Te Deums in the Catholic cathedrals of Austria.<br /><br /> [....] James the Second himself had no sympathy — quite the contrary — with the idea of an autonomous or semi-autonomous Irish nation. A few extracts from the Instructions left by him to his son illumine his attitude towards the country — its national status, native culture and traditions.<br /><br /> “Great care must be taken,” he writes, “to civilize the ancient families (of Ireland) by having the sons of the chiefs of them bred up in England ….. by which means they will have greater dependence on the Crown and, by degrees, will be weaned from their natural hatred against the English.” He writes, too, that the garrison towns should not have natives of Ireland as Governors, nor any troops except English, Scotch and strangers, “for the Irish are easily led by their chiefs and clergy”; and he recommends that “the O’s and Macs who were forfeited for rebelling in James the First’s time ought to be kept out of their estates”. No native too, he maintains, should be Lord Lieutenant, and the Irish Parliament must be subordinate to that of England. There is no doubt that James, an intensely patriotic Englishman did not love Ireland and that, had he triumphed, her political status would have remained unchanged.<br /><br /> There was, as has been seen, in the Jacobites of Ireland none of that loyal and romantic attachment to the Stuarts which was so marked in those of Scotland. This is particularly seen in the spirit pervading the Jacobite poetry and ballads of the two countries.Those of Scotland show an intimate personal devotion to the Stuart princes which is absent from those of Ireland. In these latter, immensely smaller in bulk compared with the former, the theme is conventional and lacks the fervour of those of the Highlands. The romantic figure of Prince Charles did often, it is true, inspire the Irish poets. But when their verses are most poignant and spontaneous, it is not of him they sing but of their country’s unhappy fate, the tragedy of her exiled sons and chiefs, and the hope of their return.shanehttp://lxoa.wordpress.comnoreply@blogger.com